Some news from Romania

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Maybe Natrix natrix persa will differ too much one day, to become Natrix persa

Not to continue to be my annoying self, but it seems more likely to me that the opposite would happen...

[Mario Schweiger]

Not to continue to be my annoying self, but it seems more likely to me that the opposite would happen...

That's my hope too!
But reality in many cases tell us the opposite

Mario

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Just to be clear - I was aiming at gradual loss of divergence due to secondary contact, rather than scientists' perception of things. If the Glaciations caused temporary isolation leading to divergence without reproductive barriers, then followed by secondary contact and successful interbreeding and gene flow, I would imagine the divergence might fade away somewhat... (e.g. persa-natrix). Having said that - to me, this study seems to suggest that some subspecies should be better off if revoked. The inflation of taxa in some Podarcis species or e.g. Kotschy's gecko also seems a little (ahum...) over the top. In fact, it seems European snake species have been treated quite sensibly in this regard, imho. And there I am again with my bla-di-bla

[Alexandre Roux]

My opinion is based on my biological studies, and I have not heard (on this occasion) about a convergence between sub-species (or species) after they underwent an evolutionary divergence!
But I confess that the idea (rather contrary to what I learned in my classes) intrigues me greatly.
Maybe you want to talk about a loss of genetic material by "crossing"?
In the end, this is an option that I did not think much (although perfectly logical since these two "strains" are in direct contact, no isolation). Please excuse my lack of documentation, but it would be the turn of things? This issue was thoroughly in some studies?

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

My opinion is based on my biological studies, and I have not heard (on this occasion) about a convergence between sub-species (or species) after they underwent an evolutionary divergence!
But I confess that the idea (rather contrary to what I learned in my classes) intrigues me greatly.
Maybe you want to talk about a loss of genetic material by "crossing"?
In the end, this is an option that I did not think much (although perfectly logical since these two "strains" are in direct contact, no isolation). Please excuse my lack of documentation, but it would be the turn of things? This issue was thoroughly in some studies?

I believe these intergradation/introgression zones are exact examples of my point. Other examples might be similar zones in Salamandra salamandra. At (debatable...) species level, let's consider the (clinal) all-hybrid zone between Speleomantes ambrosii and S. italicus. To a certain degree, you could also consider the complex mix in Bombina bombina-variegata. These are examples of loss of discrete variability and (gradually) (re?)appearance of clinal variation at either or both sides of an introgression zone, regardless whether it concerns species, subspecies or populations. I admit that I should argue my point more in detail, but there's this stupid movie I really have to watch now . I would imagine that the rate and eventuality of a growing intergradation zone finally leading to one clinal gradient and totally annihilation of former taxa which you might want to call subspecies is of course hard to find proof of because the end product looks a lot like as if nothing ever happened .

[Alexandre Roux]

Hope your film will be nice

Maybe we can imagine "big" studies (during many years) in places of "hybridations". Genetic analysis could be an answerabe proof of what you expect (and what could be truth because I believe strong that you may be right !). But the more the time pass, the more we discover new subspecies/species... Without any tendance to "re"speciation or new speciation approved.

Just want to share that beautiful Anguis colchica internalis !


Anguis colchica internalis

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Let me conclude by pointing out that some species concepts do not recognise subspecies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species#De ... of_species

[Alexandre Roux]

We came back today to the place we've seen V.ammodytes 3 weeks later ans that was an amazing day. Very nice (it was a little raining but reptiles were out !).


Bombina variegata scabra


Vipera ammodytes ammodytes


Vipera ammodytes ammodytes


Vipera ammodytes ammodytes


Vipera ammodytes ammodytes


Zamenis longissimus


Zamenis longissimus


Zamenis longissimus

[Guillaume Gomard]

Great shots Alex

[Alexandre Roux]

Last to days we went out because of the shy sun but we found some great things.


Coronella austriaca


Bufo viridis


Triturus dobrogicus

And take a look at these nice animals ! A yellow Tree frog and two Green Fire-bellied toad.


Hyla arborea


Bombina bombina


Bombina bombina