Croatia April/May 2013 Trip Report

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Re: Croatia April/May 2013 Trip Report

Postby Peter Oefinger » Sat May 16, 2015 8:37 am

Haha - maximum confusion! :lol:

From me, the following points speek for melisellensis:

- There also occur orange-bellied siculus on the mainland but in these cases, also the flanks are orange. The specimen on the questionable picture has light flanks with fine dark pattern.
- In orange-bellied siculus, the orange colour rarely reaches the throat and there are never orange upper labials. "Our" specimen has bright orange upper labials.
- Our specimen has a fine dark pattern while in siculus campestris there are usually big dark blotches.
- The light dorsolateral line combined with the rather small and short head also speak for meli (although these characters fit also for female siculus).
- The well defined blue outer belly scales also speak for melisellensis (rather pale and blured in siculus, if present).

Soft characters, I know...

Finally, for your please a nice shot a colleage has done on Cres in April:
http://lacerta.de/AS/Bildarchiv/IMG_9614HD.jpg

Cheers.
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Re: Croatia April/May 2013 Trip Report

Postby Michael Wilms » Sat May 16, 2015 9:31 am

I did not expect to provoke so much confusion! :o :lol:

But it is intersting, how you discuss this, althoug i don't want you to argue so naughty.

Discuss it in a sensible way with good argumentation!

I'm expecting excitedly, what Mario's comment will be and which result it will get at the end!

Does it help, if I describe where I found it?
It was in the National Park Paklenica above the "Planinarski dom Paklencia" at 600 m a.s.l., just some meters from the place where I took the picture of the V. ammodytes Habitat.


31.jpg
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Re: Croatia April/May 2013 Trip Report

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Sat May 16, 2015 10:37 am

I just thought it had to be siculus because of the narrow vertebral and the orange underside,

Bero's confusion is understandable, because of course I made a mistake and wanted to write melisellensis, apologies.
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Re: Croatia April/May 2013 Trip Report

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sat May 16, 2015 1:35 pm

Peter Oefinger wrote:The well defined blue outer belly scales also speak for melisellensis (rather pale and blured in siculus, if present).

Sorry, but the difference lies in the percentage of the blue ventral scale tips, not in their being "well defined" or
"pale and blurred". (I've seen hundreds of siculi, with very sharply defined and conspicuous blue tips, believe me.)
At most up to 1/2 = 50 % for siculus, and more than 2/3 = 67 % for melisellensis. (Of course, this applies to
males only. For females one should rely on some other telling traits...)
In this particular case it's difficult to say... for me, a borderline case, no matter how one counts the blue ones...
The animal also has a melisellensis "baby face" (scientifically: shape of the head) but, as Werner says, that's just
not describable in objective ("scientific") terms, it's rather a "recognizable impression" - only for those who have
already seen many of these lizards, of course... I've not yet reached this "advanced intuitive level", but I hope I
can "see" (or recognize) what he meant...
The place where it was found speaks for melisellensis as well... In this part of the Adriatic coast the siculus has
probably not have penetrated that far into the interior, but you never know...
The massetericum shield is absent in this individual (at least on the right side, visible in this picture), so the
criterion based on that trait (however shaky and flawed it might be...) simply can't be applied...
A devilish case indeed...
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Re: Croatia April/May 2013 Trip Report

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sat May 16, 2015 1:57 pm

Peter Oefinger wrote:Finally, for your please a nice shot a colleage has done on Cres in April:
http://lacerta.de/AS/Bildarchiv/IMG_9614HD.jpg

Splendid. Congratulations regarding the photo. In this case everything is perfectly clear, except...
was it at the "good old" locality in Osor (already known & published), or a new one elsewhere?
(Actually I even dare not hope it's a new one, as that would be "too good to be true", just being
curious...)
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Re: Croatia April/May 2013 Trip Report

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Sun May 17, 2015 5:24 pm

I agree with Bero about the head being meli-like.

Peter Oefinger wrote:Finally, for your please a nice shot a colleage has done on Cres in April:
http://lacerta.de/AS/Bildarchiv/IMG_9614HD.jpg

What is this supposed to illustrate? This is meli, right!?
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Re: Croatia April/May 2013 Trip Report

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun May 17, 2015 5:51 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:What is this supposed to illustrate? This is meli, right!?

Right, no doubt. This is supposed to illustrate the peaceful coexistence of melis and oxys at a
certain "half-secret" microlocality on Cres. And is also a beautiful photo as such. What more
would you like (to know)?
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Re: Croatia April/May 2013 Trip Report

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Sun May 17, 2015 6:40 pm

Nothing more, thanks.
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Re: Croatia April/May 2013 Trip Report

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun May 17, 2015 10:46 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:Nothing more, thanks.

Well, I'd like to know the locality - the old one or a new one? Peter?
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Re: Croatia April/May 2013 Trip Report

Postby Mario Schweiger » Mon May 18, 2015 7:50 am

Mario Schweiger wrote:nice pictures, Michael.
For me, all species are with correct names ;)
Its nice to see so many landscape-pictures, very familiar to me!


Apologies for this post!
The Podarcis pic above the Algyroides is melisellensis for sure!
Just overlooked it when writing "everything is correct"!

Everything on the difference between siculus and meli has been written by others before.

Mea culpa (especially for Bero :lol: ) to bring so much trouble and discussions with my posting :oops:

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Please visit also my personal Herp-site vipersgarden.at
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