Croatia Spring 2015 Trip Report

Croatia, BiH, Serbia, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, Greece including ALL islands

Re: Croatia Spring 2015 Trip Report

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:18 pm

Alexander Pieh wrote:By the way I would prefer to discuss taxonomy via e-mail. I believe the forum is the wrong place.

As far as I can remember, noone has ever complained about having discussions like that in this forum.
Some where quite long, sometimes even quite "sharp", but never uninteresting and/or useless.
After all, that's what we have here the "Theoretical Section" for - in order not to "pollute" (or "dilute")
the field reports with "too much" (?) theory.
But certainly noone will press you into that if you personally dislike it.

Dear Bero,
I can´t follow you.
What HD wanted to say was:
The view is taken that it could be interpreted as a subspecies of T. hermanni - not as a Species.

Dear Alex,
I'm no mind reader and I don't know what H.-D. WANTED to say, nor do I feel obliged to guess myself what
anybody wanted to say, but actually didn't. Sorry. (Well, I'd take that trouble for an intimate friend or a
a woman I'm dying for, but not in a scientific paper.) So, I've carefully read 10 times what he DID WRITE,
and I don't like it at all. I'm willing to explain why, either here (if you agree) or in private (if you insist).
But it has nothing to do with "valid or unvalid", for me the problem lies in the logic of the argumentation,
AS WRITTEN in the paper. And I have the impression that up to now you've interpreted a single (but key!)
sentence of it in two quite different senses... within two days. Correct/forgive me if I'm wrong. And please,
take no offence. That would lead us nowhere.

Has a subspecies taxon within a subspecies complex to be related next to the nominotypical form
according to your view? & c.

No. I can only suppose/hope Jeroen would agree. After all, the question was directed at him, not me.
Anyhow, I'm ready & willing to explain, see above.

Of course, when it comes to any friendly help regarding fieldwork, if I can be of any help, I'm always here.
Berislav Horvatic
 
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Re: Croatia Spring 2015 Trip Report

Postby Frédéric Seyffarth » Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:20 pm

By the way I would prefer to discuss taxonomy via e-mail. I believe the forum is the wrong place.


Why it couldn't be the right place...?
It can be interesting for other users too ;-)

Regards

Fred
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Re: Croatia Spring 2015 Trip Report

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:32 pm

Frédéric Seyffarth wrote:Why it couldn't be the right place...? It can be interesting for other users too ;-)

Imho, it always has been. Personally, I've learned a lot from discussions like that. It's like
a live discussion at a scientific conference, which is the fastest way of clearing any topic.
But if Alex dislikes it for any reason, let's not press him into it.

@ Alex: Michael has my e-mail address, of course he does, so just get it from him.
Berislav Horvatic
 
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Re: Croatia Spring 2015 Trip Report

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:21 pm

Alexander Pieh wrote:Has a subspecies taxon within a subspecies complex to be related next to the nominotypical form according to your view?


Of course not.

A subspecies is a geographical morph. If its features (morphological but also molecular) are not clearly set apart from the other subspecies, but rather show a clear mix or clinal variation, they are not valid. Hence, hercegovinensis should be placed in synonymy with boettgeri. The trouble, as ever so often, however, is that these things are never clear-cut. In other words, my "clearly set apart" may be (more often than we might like) debatable. The case at hand may be exactly such a 'grey area' example.

Remember that certain species concepts do not use subspecies at all, so maybe that's our way out. ;)

Frédéric Seyffarth wrote:It can be interesting for other users too ;-)

That's what I would think too...
Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: Croatia Spring 2015 Trip Report

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:09 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:Remember that certain species concepts do not use subspecies at all, so maybe that's our way out. ;)

Regarding tortoises in particular, I would (intimately) agree with Hannes Hill, who likes to call all of them
just "Dosenfleisch" (canned meat)... (Namely, that's actually what they look like, what they are, and what
they were used for on ships in some former, "dark" centuries...)
Please forgive me this off-topic comment of mine, especially if you are enamoured in tortoises. I'm not,
and neither is Hannes. But we do RESPECT them, of course. And their fans as well.
Berislav Horvatic
 
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