tripreport greece

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Re: tripreport greece

Postby Ilian Velikov » Sun May 20, 2018 10:54 pm

Ruggero, I understand what you are saying and I was indeed talking generally without having much information about the area but for me personally the line between "natural" predation and "human" predation is blurred, to say the least. In any case you can't ignore the fact that the numerous "natural" predators actively seek and hunt snakes, while shepherds, tourists or any kind of people can (or maybe not) kill a snake only if they accidentally stumble upon it, they don't systematically look for them in order to kill them. I may not have experience in this particular area but I have had contact and experiences with shepherds and other "ophidio-phobic" people from areas in Bulgaria which are no less productive in terms of snakes and I can guarantee you they don't encounter snakes every day, and especially not in a situation they could have the chance to kill them (they don't get the opportunity to kill each one they see). So I would still put my money on the effect these people have on the environment rather than direct killing. I'm not saying it's not a factor at all but it's a minimal one, if at all.
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Re: tripreport greece

Postby Ruggero Morimando » Tue May 22, 2018 11:16 am

Ok Ilian, we have already written about this... ;)
There is a direct voluntary killing action by humans which could be maybe of secondary importance, but there is always an indirect killing action which is surely a relevant one: roadkills (hundreds of specimens are killed in this way!), drainage of swamps, fires, construction of new roads or buildings, pollution, excessive livestock, introduction of wild boars or exotic species and so on...
So, if you consider "human activity" as a whole, you cannot deny that humans are "The cause" of snake populations decline... :? ;)
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Re: tripreport greece

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Tue May 22, 2018 12:25 pm

introduction of wild boars or exotic species and so on...

Dont forget cats :x
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Re: tripreport greece

Postby Bernard Carrette » Tue May 22, 2018 2:18 pm

Cats, indeed. More than 50% of the dead snakes I have seen the last years in Greece were not roadkills but clearly killed by an animal with fangs (visible marks). Could be stone martins (Martes foina) but considering the preys were not eaten but just killed, I would opt for cats. Blame the cats? No blame again the humans, being kept as pets means less natural selection and an unatural abundance and even a well fed cat will follow his instinct of predator.
About livestocks, I do not know for Epirus, but for Greece in general, livestocks of sheeps and goats have not increased dramatically, on the contrary, since 2004 there has been a decline (statistics about this can easely be found).
But we all agree, a broad range of human activity is the cause.
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Re: tripreport greece

Postby Ilian Velikov » Tue May 22, 2018 6:26 pm

Ruggero Morimando wrote:So, if you consider "human activity" as a whole, you cannot deny that humans are "The cause" of snake populations decline...


Bernard Carrette wrote:But we all agree, a broad range of human activity is the cause.


Yes, we do agree about this. Humans are most definitely the cause but if we talk in conservation terms and actions that need to be taken to prevent further decline, there are many other things (many already listed) that need to be addressed as more important before trying to convince stubborn scared people that killing snakes is bad. After all if you exclude the other factors (which are very recent in terms of history of life) and we are left with just some individual people killing individual snakes I think all would be fine. People have been killing snakes probably before we were actually human and both species have survived just fine until now.
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Re: tripreport greece

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Tue May 22, 2018 8:28 pm

Ilian Velikov wrote:
Ruggero Morimando wrote:So, if you consider "human activity" as a whole, you cannot deny that humans are "The cause" of snake populations decline...


Bernard Carrette wrote:But we all agree, a broad range of human activity is the cause.


Yes, we do agree about this. Humans are most definitely the cause but if we talk in conservation terms and actions that need to be taken to prevent further decline, there are many other things (many already listed) that need to be addressed as more important before trying to convince stubborn scared people that killing snakes is bad. After all if you exclude the other factors (which are very recent in terms of history of life) and we are left with just some individual people killing individual snakes I think all would be fine. People have been killing snakes probably before we were actually human and both species have survived just fine until now.

The sad fact is that we have now more people living than ever before.
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Re: tripreport greece

Postby Bernard Carrette » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:47 am

On the causes of decline of reptiles, here is an interesting paper about the impact of feral cats on the reptile population in Australia. Anyone aware of similar studies for Europe?

https://www.publish.csiro.au/WR/WR17160
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Re: tripreport greece

Postby Ruggero Morimando » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:58 am

Michal Szkudlarek wrote:
Ilian Velikov wrote:
Ruggero Morimando wrote:So, if you consider "human activity" as a whole, you cannot deny that humans are "The cause" of snake populations decline...


Bernard Carrette wrote:But we all agree, a broad range of human activity is the cause.


Yes, we do agree about this. Humans are most definitely the cause but if we talk in conservation terms and actions that need to be taken to prevent further decline, there are many other things (many already listed) that need to be addressed as more important before trying to convince stubborn scared people that killing snakes is bad. After all if you exclude the other factors (which are very recent in terms of history of life) and we are left with just some individual people killing individual snakes I think all would be fine. People have been killing snakes probably before we were actually human and both species have survived just fine until now.

The sad fact is that we have now more people living than ever before.


Yes Michal, this is I wanted to say in my many posts.
And if you do a research on the web, you will actually find that many herp species ar at risk or in decline nowadays.
To remain in Europe, for me it's enough to remember that Aeskulapian snakes still lived in Denmark at the beginning of 1900...
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