muralis or liolepis?

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muralis or liolepis?

Postby Ilian Velikov » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:47 pm

Subadult found near Barcelona. For me it is 99% liolepis because I have only ever found liolepis in this area but this one got me wondering. Note the lack of masseteric scale which although supposedly it is usually present in liolepis is always lacking in all the individuals I've see here so far.

20180120_150055.jpg
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Re: muralis or liolepis?

Postby Rafa Carmona » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:24 pm

I think it's liolepis
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Re: muralis or liolepis?

Postby Ilian Velikov » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:44 pm

Thanks Rafa!
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Re: muralis or liolepis?

Postby Rafa Carmona » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:51 am

thanks to you, ilian, I am an admirer of yours for your drawings and the field guide of amphibians and reptiles of europe
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Re: muralis or liolepis?

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:46 am

Thanks, I'm glad you like my drawings and the guide.
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Re: muralis or liolepis?

Postby Ruggero Morimando » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:46 am

Ilian Velikov wrote:Subadult found near Barcelona. For me it is 99% liolepis because I have only ever found liolepis in this area but this one got me wondering. Note the lack of masseteric scale which although supposedly it is usually present in liolepis is always lacking in all the individuals I've see here so far.

20180120_150055.jpg


Ilian, I don't understand one thing, from a logic point of view.
You have written that in all the individuals you have found there, the masseteric scale was unusually not present. But you are anyway sure that all those individuals were liolepis, and I accept this as a fact.
So (my question): why do you ask and you are in doubt only about this particular specimen pictured above, of the many you have seen?
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Re: muralis or liolepis?

Postby Ilian Velikov » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:57 am

Ruggero Morimando wrote:Ilian, I don't understand one thing, from a logic point of view.
You have written that in all the individuals you have found there, the masseteric scale was unusually not present. But you are anyway sure that all those individuals were liolepis, and I accept this as a fact.
So (my question): why do you ask and you are in doubt only about this particular specimen pictured above, of the many you have seen?


I'm sure that all the others I've seen were liolepis because all of them had the proportions/build of liolepis combined with either the typical "lace" pattern of the males or (almost) completely uniform dull brown-grey colour (common in liolepis and rare in muralis). Also as I said they were all lacking masseteric scale which is also rare in muralis. I thought I'd ask about this one just because the pattern looks very close to muralis and I though I would check if I might be wrong that only liolepis is found in this particular area.
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Re: muralis or liolepis?

Postby Ruggero Morimando » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:43 pm

Thanks Ilian, I understand now.
Honestly I don't know liolepis: never seen one and for me it's a totally unknown species.
But, should I find a lizard as the one of your picture where I live (where only muralis and rarely sicula are found) I would think: "it's a rather strange lizard, with those four well marked white longitudinal stripes..."
And probably I would judge it at the end as a female striped muralis... Even if the tail seems more the one of a male...
:lol: ;)
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Re: muralis or liolepis?

Postby Ilian Velikov » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:04 pm

Ruggero Morimando wrote:But, should I find a lizard as the one of your picture where I live (where only muralis and rarely sicula are found) I would think: "it's a rather strange lizard, with those four well marked white longitudinal stripes..."

Now you got be confused :) If there are mainly muralis in your area why would you think a lizard like this is strange? The 4 white lines look very typical for female muralis to me...or are muralis in your area different?
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Re: muralis or liolepis?

Postby Ruggero Morimando » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:13 pm

Ilian Velikov wrote:
Ruggero Morimando wrote:But, should I find a lizard as the one of your picture where I live (where only muralis and rarely sicula are found) I would think: "it's a rather strange lizard, with those four well marked white longitudinal stripes..."

Now you got be confused :) If there are mainly muralis in your area why would you think a lizard like this is strange? The 4 white lines look very typical for female muralis to me...or are muralis in your area different?


The answer is the following, and it's double faced.
I know that the lizard of your picture is not a muralis and so I'm forced to find some differences from the muralis I normally see.

But, and this is a fact, the females of muralis I normally see where I live are not so "well striped" as the one of your picture. The stripes are present, very often, but, if I remember well, not so well represented. But I could also be wrong...

And your lizard, considering the form of the broad basis of the tail, seems also to be a male and not a female. And this would be another confusing factor for my poor knowledges about lizards...

But now I'm asking you. How would you say it's a liolepis if well marked stripes are not a distinctive trait?
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