MOROCCO TRIP 27 april-6 may

[Mario Schweiger]

No, there is a picture of this DOR Naja and the guys have coordinates too.
Todays problem is the over cultivation of land and overgrazing, so the habitats for herps (and other stuff) gets less and less.
And in a high used landscape, snakes will have no real chance to survice, even if there would be some space for them to live.

Mario

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

That Macroprotodon looks very intriguing. Of course, I'm no expert of that stuff. I think no one really has a comprehensive overview on the huge variability in Macroprotodon pattern. Interesting little snakes...

(((((

No, there is a picture of this DOR Naja and the guys have coordinates too.

How does that rule out a (purely theoretical) allochthonous origin? )))))

[Mario Schweiger]

(((((

No, there is a picture of this DOR Naja and the guys have coordinates too.

How does that rule out a (purely theoretical) allochthonous origin? )))))

No, this doesnt rule out, it has been an escaped specimen.

My statement was for

Friends of mine, last year found a huge (160+ cm) Naja DOR on the road north of Tamri Bay, which is the northern most place, where they occur!

??? sure ?? of course you are sure about this information...

and the last of these "old" records is from P.Y. Crochet on September 1st, 1995, north of Tamanar, which is situated approx. 50 km more north of this place.
Cant believe, that there are snake catchers around - for what - not really something to earn money

how the landscape looks there

Mario

[Pierre-Yves Vaucher]

? I would not look at Naja in this kind of place... just some Hemorrhois...

[Gabriel Martínez]

? I would not look at Naja in this kind of place... just some Hemorrhois...

In a habitat close Agadir like Mario´s photo, we found a DOR Daboia mauritanica and also Malpolon monspessulanus, Natrix maura and Hemorrhois hippocrepis alive. And there are old records of Naja and Dasypeltis sahelensis there. Argan trees habitat seem bad but it´s full of snakes! Even the Taroudant habitat where we found a cobra in last trip was like this...

[Pierre-Yves Vaucher]

we must organize an expedition....

Ok Gabri... message sent...

[Gabriel Martínez]

In Saidia, extrema northeast Morocco, at 5km to Algeria we found this snake. Morphologically seems a bit different to M. monspessulanus monspessulanus, and some authors suggest that this specimen is a hybrids/intermediates between M. m. monspessulanus and M. insignitus. But genetic analysis (Carranza et al., 2006) show that one sample of Saidia is similar to the north Moroccan and Andalussian samples. I´m really confused about this complex situation:
a) maybe in Saidia is possible to find in sympatry M.m.monspessulanus x M. insignitus with pure M. m. monspessulanus?
b) Carranza et al´s used wrong samples in the study?
c) M. monspessulanus east of Moulouya basin, seems morphologically a bit insignitu but without gene flow inter both species?

Monspessulanus x insignitus?

206. Malpolon monspessulanus. Saidia. Gabri mtnez copia.jpg (233.22 KiB) Viewed 5555 times

Monspessulanus x insignitus?

205. Malpolon monspessulanus. Saidia. Gabri mtnez copia.jpg (134.18 KiB) Viewed 5554 times

Monspessulanus x insignitus?

204. Malpolon monspessulanus.Saidia. Gabri Mtnez copia.jpg (243.58 KiB) Viewed 5579 times

Monspessulanus x insignitus?

203. Malpolon monspessulanus.Saidia. Gabri Mtnez.jpg (239.62 KiB) Viewed 5578 times

Monspessulanus x insignitus?

202. Malpolon monspessulanus.Saidia. Gabri Mtnez.jpg (208.72 KiB) Viewed 5580 times

I know that these are some complex questions. It´s a pity that this specimen was shedding. Here is possible to find other of Francisco Jimenez Cazalla with similar characteristics: http://www.moroccoherps.com/ficha/Malpolon_insignitus

If anybody know a response, it´s ok! If not, I hope that you enjoy with the pictures

[Mario Schweiger]

Good questions, Gabri

First, I thought it should be easy by counting the dorsal scale rows (19 in monspessulanus, 17 in insignitus), as published by me in my "old" Ouarzazate paper.
These values are given in a lot of "older" literature.
But now, studying some literature, these 17 dorsal scale rows are only valid for M. insignitus fuscus (Balkans, Turkey, N Iraq and W Iran; Terra typica: Dalmatia). Cyprus specimens may have 17 or 19 rows. Malpolon i. insignitus (NE Morocco through north Africa to W Syria; Terra typica: Egypt) seems to have 19 rows, as far as I have found out now.
So the only morphological differences might be some differences in ventrals? and the missing saddle in insignitus males.

I hate these cryptic species

Mario

[Mario Schweiger]

That Macroprotodon looks very intriguing. Of course, I'm no expert of that stuff. I think no one really has a comprehensive overview on the huge variability in Macroprotodon pattern. Interesting little snakes...

May be, this will help or will do more confusion

WADE, E. (2001): Review of the False Smooth snake genus Macroprotodon (Serpentes, Colubridae) in Algeria with a description of a new species.-- Bull. nat. Hist. Mus. Lond. (Zool.) 67(1): 85-107. -- PDF-3999
Summary: The characters used to define Macroprotodon cucullatus mauritanicus Guichenot are re-evaluated. The taxa. M. c. cucullatus. M. c. brevis and M. c. mauritanicus are considered to be full species. The populations occurring in northern Algeria- from Algiers eastwards to Northern Tunisia are retained as M. mauritanicus. Those populations from Algiers westwards into Morocco as far as Melilla are recognised as a new species, M. abubakeri. The populations inhabiting the regions further south are morphologically closer to M. cucullatus Geoffroy Saint-Hilaire and are assigned to that species. The status of M. c. ibericus Busack & McCoy is discussed.

Mario

[Gabriel Martínez]

But now, studying some literature, these 17 dorsal scale rows are only valid for M. insignitus fuscus (Balkans, Turkey, N Iraq and W Iran; Terra typica: Dalmatia). Cyprus specimens may have 17 or 19 rows. Malpolon i. insignitus (NE Morocco through north Africa to W Syria; Terra typica: Egypt) seems to have 19 rows, as far as I have found out now.
So the only morphological differences might be some differences in ventrals? and the missing saddle in insignitus males.

Yes, Saidia specimen had 19 scale rows at midbody but many supposed "pure insignitus" have 19 rows at body. About the dark saddle, the Saidia specimen hasn´t saddle or maybe a soft saddle, not the typical of the monspessulanus males (short in ssp. monspessulanus, huge in ssp. saharatlanticus: http://www.moroccoherps.com/en/ficha/Ma ... pessulanus). For example, in this Kenitra male shedding the saddle is clear.

Mal monps Kenitra Gabri Mtnez.jpg (195.49 KiB) Viewed 5475 times

The question is very strange. I have a sample of Saidia specimen. It could be interesting to compare it with a sample of Andalussia for example...
In the genetic study (Carranza, S., Arnold, E.N. & Pleguezuelos, J.M. 2006. Phylogeny, biogeography, and evolution of two Mediterranean snakes, Malpolon monspessulanus and Hemorrhois hippocrepis (Squamata, Colubridae), using mtDNA sequences. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. 450 (2): 532-546) M. insignitus would be restricted to Tunissia, Lybia... but Algerian/east Morocco samples (morphologicaly similar to insignitus) belong to monspessulanus! Maybe it could be interesting to make a study with genetic samples, photos and pholidosis studies to clear this situation...