MOROCCO TRIP 27 april-6 may

Morocco, Algeria, Tunesia, Libya, Egypt, Sinai

Re: MOROCCO TRIP 27 april-6 may

Postby Gabriel Martínez » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:11 pm

Mario Schweiger wrote:
Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:That Macroprotodon looks very intriguing. Of course, I'm no expert of that stuff. I think no one really has a comprehensive overview on the huge variability in Macroprotodon pattern. Interesting little snakes...


May be, this will help ;) or will do more confusion :oops:

WADE, E. (2001): Review of the False Smooth snake genus Macroprotodon (Serpentes, Colubridae) in Algeria with a description of a new species.-- Bull. nat. Hist. Mus. Lond. (Zool.) 67(1): 85-107. -- PDF-3999
Summary: The characters used to define Macroprotodon cucullatus mauritanicus Guichenot are re-evaluated. The taxa. M. c. cucullatus. M. c. brevis and M. c. mauritanicus are considered to be full species. The populations occurring in northern Algeria- from Algiers eastwards to Northern Tunisia are retained as M. mauritanicus. Those populations from Algiers westwards into Morocco as far as Melilla are recognised as a new species, M. abubakeri. The populations inhabiting the regions further south are morphologically closer to M. cucullatus Geoffroy Saint-Hilaire and are assigned to that species. The status of M. c. ibericus Busack & McCoy is discussed.

Mario



Yes, this is a interesting work, but one more time, later a genetic analysis confuse this more!!!
Carranza, S., Arnold, E.N., Wade, E. & Fahd, S. 2004. Phylogeography of the false smooth snakes, Macroprotodon (Serpentes, Colubridae): mitochondrial DNA sequences show European populations arrived recently from Northwest Africa. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 33 (3): 523-532

For example M. mauritanicus can´t be recoginized. See for example the Jeroen comments about my inocent comment :lol:

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
Gabriel Martínez wrote:Hi guys!! Macroproton of Balearic islands were introduced from Tunissia or east Algeria and they are the subspecies mauritanicus (no cucullatus)!


I assume you mean 'species'? Well, doesn't really matter actually, because as already argued by Crochet & Dubois (2004) and adopted by Speybroeck & Crochet (2007) (and implicitly also by Speybroeck et al., 2010), this seems rather incorrect. Wade (2001) assigned the different species based on morphology. To put it short, imho, he more or less went too far with splitting. This seems to be confirmed by molecular work from 2004. Considering the phylogeny of Carranza et al. (2004), it is clear that (their) cucullatus cucullatus is placed in the same clade as mauritanicus (see tree on p. 527).
To treat mauritanicus as a distinct species, textilis would have to be redefined. Taking into account the polyphyletic nature of cucullatus textilis (note also nomenclatural issues with this name!), it seems at least premature to distinguish between mauritanicus and cucullatus at the species level, but in my opinion at any level at all. Surprisingly, Carranza et al. (2004) seemed to maintain the -imho- by their work (partially) rejected species of Wade (2001), treating the single cucullatus cucullatus sample as a species different of mauritanicus. Unfortunately, this has been copied without question.

http://molevol.cmima.csic.es/carranza/pdf/Macroprotodon.pdf
Quote: "As noted, mitochondrial DNA strongly supports three monophyletic units within Macroprotodon: the newly described M. abubakeri and clades consisting largely of M. mauritanicus and M. brevis. In contrast, individuals assigned to M. cucullatus on the basis of morphology are associated with either M. mauritanicus or M. brevis, making these paraphyletic and indicating
that the M. cucullatus specimens cannot be regarded as belonging to a single monophyletic species."

Please read the first sentence. Since the only available cucullatus cucullatus sample nests with mauritanicus, this group has to be called cucullatus in total.
Since
(a) cucullatus as a name has clear priority over mauritanicus,
(b) nuclear evidence is lacking, as well as study of introgression levels and samples of the 'cucullatus' near the range of abudakeri,
(c) textilis is polyphetically scattered in the tree and
(d) splitting between mauritanicus and cucullatus seems at the moment quite clearly a bridge too far + discordant with not splitting between brevis and ibericus at species level,
it seems most sensible to accept only three species: brevis, abudakeri and cucullatus.

This has been -at least to me opinion- properly adopted by the IUCN reviewers =>
http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/61533/0

EDIT:

Therefore, I call the Balearic populations Macroprotodon cucullatus. Maybe Macroprotodon cucullatus mauritanicus but quite surely not (yet) Macroprotodon mauritanicus. As such, the vernacular name "Algerian False Smooth Snake" becomes a bit 'narrow', but that's not that big a problem, of course.
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Re: MOROCCO TRIP 27 april-6 may

Postby Mario Schweiger » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:12 pm

I´ve found an old pic with Malpolon monspessulanus - hold by a snake catcher a few kilometres west of Taradount/Souss valley in September 1981. The others are 2 schokari´s one maura and one hippocrepis/algirus.

Bild114.jpg
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Re: MOROCCO TRIP 27 april-6 may

Postby Gabriel Martínez » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:28 pm

Mario Schweiger wrote:I´ve found an old pic with Malpolon monspessulanus - hold by a snake catcher a few kilometres west of Taradount/Souss valley in September 1981. The others are 2 schokari´s one maura and one hippocrepis/algirus.

The attachment Bild114.jpg is no longer available


Very very nice male! (a pity that is a cautive specimen :cry: ). It´s a intermedius M. monspessulanus monspessulanus x M.m. saharatlanticus, very typical in Souss Valley and between Agadir-Tiznit. Carranza et al´s studies don´t include any saharatlanticus samples in the analysis to confirm the subspecies status of saharatlanticus or leave it as a desertic morph of M.m.monspessulanus. But -very rare- a Essaouira sample of this analysis show distance with the rest of samples!!! BUt in Essaouira looks 100% M.m.monspessulanus!!!!!!! :x :lol: :roll: It´s the caos and more genetic analysis (with nuclear markers) are needed...

A photo of a Malpolon DOR in Essaouira at 30cms to a Chamaleo chamaleon, probably the snake dead whereas tried to eat the very DOR camaleon (??). Snake looks totally M.m.m I think :roll:
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Malpolon and chamaleon DOR. Essaouira. Gabri Mtnez.jpg
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Re: MOROCCO TRIP 27 april-6 may

Postby Bastien Comment » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:06 am

Great pictures Gabriel, North Africa looks like a fantastic place even when you're frustrated... ;)

I would be very very interested to join a trip next year guys, it really seems to be a must for a fieldherper...
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Re: MOROCCO TRIP 27 april-6 may

Postby Stéphane Aubry » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:54 pm

Bastien Comment wrote:Great pictures Gabriel, North Africa looks like a fantastic place even when you're frustrated... ;)

I would be very very interested to join a trip next year guys, it really seems to be a must for a fieldherper...


I agree !!!

I think it would be great to organize a multi-cultural/lingual herping-expedition to Morocco :o
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Re: MOROCCO TRIP 27 april-6 may

Postby Pierre-Yves Vaucher » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:52 pm

1.
Pierre-Yves Vaucher wrote:we must organize an expedition.... :mrgreen:

2.
Pierre-Yves Vaucher wrote:we must organize an expedition.... :mrgreen:

3.
Pierre-Yves Vaucher wrote:ok lets go to plan april 2013 ! Jeroen, Mario, others ?

4.
Pierre-Yves Vaucher wrote:we must organize an expedition.... :mrgreen:


I have asked four (4) times.... Stephane you are blind or late :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol: but apparently no interest here... :o
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Re: MOROCCO TRIP 27 april-6 may

Postby Stéphane Aubry » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:27 am

Pierre-Yves Vaucher wrote:1.
Pierre-Yves Vaucher wrote:we must organize an expedition.... :mrgreen:

2.
Pierre-Yves Vaucher wrote:we must organize an expedition.... :mrgreen:

3.
Pierre-Yves Vaucher wrote:ok lets go to plan april 2013 ! Jeroen, Mario, others ?

4.
Pierre-Yves Vaucher wrote:we must organize an expedition.... :mrgreen:


I have asked four (4) times.... Stephane you are blind or late :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol: but apparently no interest here... :o


Not blind, very very interested, I think it would be great to... :mrgreen:
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Re: MOROCCO TRIP 27 april-6 may

Postby Pierre-Yves Vaucher » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:44 pm

this picture of Karim Amri (friend) show a lot of blue Cerastes. If you see the ground, there is a lot of red and blue gray substrate... I think there is a link... look at the substrate and you could imagine the color of the snake... maybe its just for this species only, I dont know...

cerastes.jpg
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Re: MOROCCO TRIP 27 april-6 may

Postby Gabriel Martínez » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:13 pm

Mario Schweiger wrote:I´ve found an old pic with Malpolon monspessulanus - hold by a snake catcher a few kilometres west of Taradount/Souss valley in September 1981. The others are 2 schokari´s one maura and one hippocrepis/algirus.

The attachment Bild114.jpg is no longer available


And I can see also a Spalerosphis dolichospilus. In Bons & Geniez 1996 there is only 1 record in all the Souss Valley!

Bastien Comment wrote:Great pictures Gabriel, North Africa looks like a fantastic place even when you're frustrated...


I was frustrated about level of activity (few Agamas, No Mesalina, Few Acanthodactylus, no snakes in roads, 2 Uromastyx, etc...), not about species. If you work hard, from march to december always is possible to find interesting things, like this, probably one of the cuttest snakes I´ve ever seen :)

1. Daboia mauritanic. Guelmim. Marruecos. Gabri Mtnez.jpg
Moorish viper, juvenile


Pierre-Yves Vaucher wrote:this picture of Karim Amri (friend) show a lot of blue Cerastes. If you see the ground, there is a lot of red and blue gray substrate... I think there is a link... look at the substrate and you could imagine the color of the snake... maybe its just for this species only, I dont know...


Where it was found?? Morocco? We found one very similar in Israel:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gabrimtnez ... 6628039646

But it´s not just of this species, see in the gallery of this account some photos of the typical coastal morph of C. vipera in Morocco ;)
http://www.moroccoherps.com/en/ficha/Cerastes_vipera
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Re: MOROCCO TRIP 27 april-6 may

Postby Pierre-Yves Vaucher » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:11 pm

Its from Morocco, I'm waiting on the exact place.
Ok the approximative "place" is near the latitude of Sidi Ifni.
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