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P.liolepis or not P.liolepis ?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:12 pm
by Robin Duborget
Hello,

I'm coming to you because of a problem of identification. Recently I have been to the pyrenees, most for insects but my camera crossed the path of some lizards :

Jujols, 26/10/2014 :
IMG_9339(forum).jpg


Tour de Batère, 02/11/2014 :
Podarcis liolepis 4(forum).jpg


These lizards are Podarcis liolepis or Podarcis muralis ? With the shape of the head scales I think that it's more liolepis than muralis, but I don't know the catalan lizard ... What do you think of that ?


Thanks,
Robin

Re: P.liolepis or not P.liolepis ?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:15 am
by Peter Oefinger
The first is liolepis, the second is muralis, I think.

Re: P.liolepis or not P.liolepis ?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:30 am
by Jürgen Gebhart
+1

Re: P.liolepis or not P.liolepis ?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:42 am
by Robin Duborget
I don't see the big scale in the temporal (masseteric) region of P.muralis on these lizards, especially in the second lizard ...

Re: P.liolepis or not P.liolepis ?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:09 am
by Jeroen Speybroeck
I think I may never feel confident enough to ID these, but my first impression was the same as what Peter wrote and Jürgen corroborated. There's no single clear-cut criterion, so the masseteric scale does not tell the whole story.

I thought this was rather useful.
http://pdubois.free.fr/Podarcis.pdf

Re: P.liolepis or not P.liolepis ?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:14 am
by Matthijs Hollanders
+1 again. Habitat could also be useful here, and the size of the second animal. I'm 99% certain the first is liolepis, 90% the second is muralis.

Re: P.liolepis or not P.liolepis ?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:43 am
by Robin Duborget
The two were in quite the same habitat. Mountain sunny and rocky scrubland. For the second "Tour de Batère" is at 1450 m and the first was at Jujols near 1350 m.
That second's had lesser human impact than the first.

Sorry I haven't the size, I can just say that the first was a very little lizard ...

What's your argument for P.muralis for the second ?

Personally I see :

+ muralis :
=> Orange iris
=> large black spots

+ liolepis :
=> dorsal coloration
=> masseteric scale absent ( that's the number one caracteristic in the key you have linked !)

Can we conclude with the habitat ?

ps : I don't disagree with you, but I wish to know how you distinguishe them (caracteristics and not impression :) ).

Best wishes,
Robin

Re: P.liolepis or not P.liolepis ?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:08 pm
by Jeroen Speybroeck
Robin Duborget wrote:masseteric scale absent ( that's the number one caracteristic in the key you have linked !)

I know, my French isn't that rusty ;) , but as you can see there are exceptions.

Robin Duborget wrote:+ muralis :
=> Orange iris
=> large black spots

Yes. As such, my 90% en 99% are vice versa compared to those of Matthijs. And lower ;) - variation is tremendous throughout the range, as exemplified e.g. by some of Peter's travel reports.

Re: P.liolepis or not P.liolepis ?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:54 pm
by Matthijs Hollanders
Yeah no joke I really was too overconfident. :D hehehe

Re: P.liolepis or not P.liolepis ?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:49 pm
by Robin Duborget
Ok, thanks guys !

Robin